of the North Manchester Historical Society, Inc.
Volume XXIII Number 2 May 2006
Blackmore Cigar Factory
(Based on a presentation by John Knarr at the Historical Society member meeting March 13, 2006. NOTE: Knarr covered mostly the period of 1915-1916 when Chester W. Kilborn was running his cigar factory in North Manchester. The Blackmore Cigar operation owned by Karl Morris from 1920-1922 was a different factory but apparently on the same premises.)
In 1983 John Knarr purchased the property at 108 E Main Street in order to set up a computer business in North Manchester. Included on the 20 foot strip of land was the old Cigar Factory structure. On the side of this building are faded letters saying "Home of the Blackmore Cigar". This building was solidly built in 1909 by John and Nancy Ridgley. It is a four-story structure with the top level an open area used for storage and the whole building may have been used for some period of time for the cigar business. The builder was Marion V. Grimm who lived in North Manchester and was known for managing the construction of school houses around the state.
An interview with Russell Michael in 1975 gave the information that a blind man built the Cigar Factory. Helms 1884 history of Wabash County states that John Ridgley was blind, having lost his eyesight near the end of the Civil War. The abstract of the 108 E Main St. property shows that Nancy Ridgley purchased it in 1887 and John's blindness may explain why she purchased the property. It was unusual for a woman to make such a purchase in this time period. But Nancy Ridgley was a downtown business woman, too, and ran a millinery shop.
John Ridgley served in the Civil War, beginning as one of the first volunteers. The joined the Ohio 13th regiment soon after Lincoln's proclamation. He later served in an Indiana regiment for three year. The Civil War rosters show that twins, Jonathan and John Ridgley entered the service at 19 years of age.
Research done by John Knarr in the writings of Josh Billings and Harry Leffel yield a bit more information. Billings indicates that the Blackmore Cigar was manufactured sometime about 1915-16. [RESEARCH UPDATE: Karl Morris's Blackmore Cigar factory was in operation during 1920-1922. Billings apparently confused Kilborn with Karl Morris.] In a front-page article in the July 29, 1915 newspaper there is a description of the products made in North Manchester to be displayed in the showcase windows on Main Street. Included in the items displayed in the Burdge building windows were tobacco leaves and two brands for cigars: Little Duke 5 cent cigars and Chester W. Kilborn handmade cigars. Just a few days before the Historical Society meeting John Knarr had discovered a Kilborn cigar box which he borrowed from the owner to display at the meeting. The label was embossed, the factory number 239 and the revenue stamp were clear. The box itself was manufactured in Dayton, Ohio.
Further newspaper research showed that Little Duke and Chester W. Kilborn cigars were advertised twice weekly in each issue of the paper from July 29, 1915 until May l, 1916. They were not advertised in the local competing paper perhaps because they were controversial. On June 12, 1916 Billings published an editorial stating that in the interest of community values, he would no longer advertise tobacco products. In April and June of 1916, the newspaper published advertisements that rooms were available in the Ridgley building.
Research related to Chester W. Kilborn found him in Grant County (Marion) under the name Kilburn in the 1910 census record. He is shown as a cigar factory owner by occupation. In 1920 he was listed in Marion business directories. Any connection with the factory in North Manchester has not yet been discovered.
Billings mentions other cigar-making businesses in our town in this time period, especially three small operations on Walnut Street; Hartman, Ulrey and Rhoades all making cigars.
Today the tall Cigar Factory
overlooks the town, staring with windowless openings at its surroundings. It was
built solidly, and it has weathered the years but noone finds a useful purpose
for it in its old age.
Another Cigar Factory
From The Journal November 22, 1888
Gift & Henney
In establishing the general aggregate of the commercial and manufacturing importance of North Manchester, the tobacco trade in its various branches must not be overlooked, as it is a factor of no insignificent proportion in the many and varied enterprises which influence the prosperity and advancement in our city. In the cigar manufacturing business the annual production if no small item and we deem a sketch of the above-named gentlement as worthy of space in our columns.
Mr. Gift commenced the manufacture of cigars in our city three years ago continuing the business under his own name until one month ago when he admitted Mr. C. Henney as partner changing the firm name to Gift & Henney. They manufacture several brands, "The Winner," being among the leaders.
The cigars these gentlemen manufacture have a wide reputation and have gained such a hold upon the smokers that they ask for them and will have no others. They have become so popular they have ready sale for all they can produce. They also manufacture the celebrated Clippings smoking tobacco and have a large local trade on the same. In the manufacture of their goods these gentlemen use only the best leaf for both fillers and wrappers. This being the case it may readily be inferred that the products of their factory are among the best to be found in the market. Messrs. Gift and Henney are young and energetic business men and we are glad to know that the people appreciate their effort to please them, and that they are enjoying a large and rapidly increasing trade.
Further note from John Knarr [see also Knarr's article in NEWSLETTER (March 2008), "Stokin' on Stogies -- Frank M. Gift and Cigar Manufacturing in 1886"]
According to some notes I have compiled, a Frank M. Gift was a cigar maker in North Manchester, and later was employed by Chapman cigar factory in Warsaw. I have seen the old ads in 1898 Warsaw City Directory for Chapman's 5-cent cigar. Frank died in 1934 in Warsaw.
The 1870 census has Daniel Gift and Wm H. Gift in Kosciusko County. The ads in 1888 in North Manchester Journal refer to Gift Bros as ' the sole manufacturers of "Winner" cigars'. . . .
According to Jones Funeral Home Records, Wabash, IN, a Daniel Gift died June 8, 1932, age 88, so he may have been Frank's brother. ... Daniel Gift belonged to the "Brethren" church, according to the Funeral Home abstract, and had gone to Oklahoma around 1912.
Any reader who can supply further information about the Gift family, please contact the Historical Society.
The Hotel Sheller
One of the great stories of history in North Manchester is the story of the historic Hotel Sheller. There are so many aspects of this story. One might be the tale of the great and glamourous who have stayed there when they made their brief appearance on local stages: Lillian Russell, Faye Templeton or Dolly Fox. The author, Lloyd C. Douglas, lived at the hotel when he was a young pastor of Zion Lutheran Church. Thomas Marshall, Vice President, was a guest at the hotel.
Up until about 1925 what was called the wide-open system was used at the hotel. This system was outlined in a sign on the counter, placed there whenever no clerk was at the desk at night. The sign read, "Please register. Take a key and find your room. Pay at the desk after 5:30 a.m."
The result was described by a Chicago man in a letter to the Chicago Tribune telling of an experience that had happened on his travels. He told of stopping at the Hotel Sheller, a "homey looking hotel", late one night and ringing the bell for service. No one answered and when he found the note on the table, he followed the directions and had a good night's sleep.
When he came down in the morning there was still no one around, and he left and went home without ever seeing a single person. But he did mail the money for the room.
In an interview in 1983, Jane Sheller said that during her first years at the hotel, "We wouldn't have lost pay for more than four or five rooms using that system."
The Planing Mill
About 1894 the North Manchester Planing Mill went into receivership. George Eichholtz moved to Indianapolis where he continued in the lumber business. Petry moved to Warsaw where he engaged in lumber and other businesses. Valdinaire moved to Benton Harbor and later to Indianapolis still working in lumber. The company was purchased by J. A. Browne and became known as the J. A. Browne & Co. Planing Mill and Lumber Yard. The History of Wabash County by Weesner printed in 1914 mentions J. A. Browne & Co. as a maker of wagons. Later, this site became an electric light station.
When the Bippus Bank began a building project on West Street in 2005 a question arose about the houses on that site which were being demolished. The suggestion was that the houses were historically significant and had belonged to the Planing Mill. So a search was made of the origins of these houses.
Samuel Krieg purchased 4.40 acres for $440.00 in 1881. When it was platted it contained six lots - each 74' by 136' and a 14' alley between lots 2 - 3 4 - 5. They were north of Main street and faced West street.
Lot 1 was bought by Alonzo Brookins for $800. The amount indicates that a house was there at the time. 12-15-1883 Brookins sold the lot to Catherine Karns for $750. Karns sold the property to C. E. Hippensteel in 3-26-1901 for $700. Lot 2 was sold by Krieg to David Myers for $175. Myers sold this property to Noftzger and Krieg on 1-2-1885 for $550. This indicates that a house was built between 8-14-1883 and 1-2-1885. Krieg sold lot 3 to Emanuel Beeler on 12-20-1882 for $150 and Lot 4 to Jacob Sax for $150. so these lots did not have houses at the time.
So the abstracts seem to verify that the houses on these lots were not built for workers of the Manchester Planing Mill for by different individuals over a period to time.
From Remembering North Manchester Indiana in the 1930's & 1940's
by R. Ned Brooks and Donald L. Jefferson
129 East Main St. - The turn of the century occupant of this building was a boot and shoe manufacturer owned by John Cowgill. Then the post office was here, but moved to 106 Walnut Street in 1908.
We don't have a date, but Harry Leffel wrote in 1965 that the very first picture show was shown at this address at the Dreamland Theater. Mr. and Mrs. William Sirk owned the movie house as well as the one down the street. The Dreamland Theater was sold, we speculate around 1918, to John E. Swain who changed the name to the Gem Theater. In the early 1920's C. M. Walter became the owner and moved the theater across the street, sometime prior to the Lautzenhiser grocery moving here in the 1920's. We are working entirely from the memory of Mr. Leffel in this case.
J. K. Lautzenhiser and Son originally operated "Little Elf Groceries" at this location, later changing to "Home Stores." Later, J. K. Lautzenhiser's son-in-law Walter W. Leffel owned the business. This was a downtown grocery of a dying breed. A customer could go in the store, hand the clerk their order, and their groceries would be assembled either while they waited or they could come back. Customers could even charge their purchases and pay at the end of the month. This grocery was a fixture in the community during our entire time period. Due to their labor-intensive method of operation, the store, though small, required 4 or 5 clerks at all times. Toward the end of the 1940's, an advertisement in the News Journal even offered to deliver the groceries at no additional charge. Undoubtedly, Home Store had started feeling the competition from the supermarkets and was responding to it.
For clarification purposes, Mr. Lautzenhiser and then Mr. Leffel privately owned this grocery. "Little Elf Groceries" and "Home Store" were purely associations that enabled the owners to buy wholesale groceries and were recognizable names to strangers. The owners were proud of both these names and displayed them prominently in the sign above their business and in their advertisements.
127 East Main St. - Radio Electric Theater opened Friday and Saturday October 6 & 7, 1933. A May 28, 1934 News Journal article stated that Radio Electric Theater owned, we think, by Earl Scott moved across the street and changed its name to Marshall Theater. Her daughter, Eileen Brubaker Bolinger, tells us that Berniece Sherburn Brubaker played piano for silent movies at this theater in the early 1930's. (Yes, it is Berniece, per her daughter).
Miller's Cafe was listed at this address in 1936, but we have no other information. Joe Ziker cleaner was here in 1943 through 1945. In 1945, the electric company and the gas company were separated. On Monday, October 21, 1946 the new gas company office was opened at this address and its name was Indiana Gas & Water Company, Inc. Ernest T. Taylor was in charge. The gas company remained here many years after our study.
125 East Main St. - Jirah B. Williams operated J. B. Williams Drug Store at this location in 1869 and we found listings in the 1923 and 1924 phone books. They still advertised in the 1930's. J. B.'s son, John W. Williams ran this drug store in the early years of our time period. John's daughter, Fern Williams, ran Fern's Attic Gift Shop on the second floor. An October 15, 1934 ad stated that the drug store was going out of business; it closed on December 12, 1934. A Gamble Store advertised at this address from December 10,1936 through 1938. It was a franchise type store selling hardware items. Dr. W. K. Damron, previously above the bank building, was a dentist and moved his practice to this location in 1941. He modernized the building and occupied it for the rest of the 1940's and well beyond. In later years, Mr. Damron was also involved in new home development in North Manchester.
000 East Main St. - This is not really an address. It was and is an undedicated alley next to the empty lot at the next address. In the 1920's, Peter Speed and his wife Olive Speed operated a shoe repair, Speed Shoe Shop, in a shed in this space. They were never authorized to do so, but apparently no one ever complained. An article in the January 5, 1931 News Journal told of "The old Speed shoe shop" in the alley on the south side of Main Street moving away.
123 East Main Street - This was an empty lot at the beginning of our study. It once held a millinery shop, owned by the Woods sisters, which burned.
121 East Main St. - The Manchester Herald was here in 1924. A printing company owned by Ruby McMann was located at this address, but was later taken over by Coleman Printing Company. There are advertisements in 1948, 49, and 50 for Coleman Printing at 112 E. Main St., so they may have moved to that address but more likely the "121" was transposed in the ad to "112".
119 East Main St. - The American Express office was here in earlier years. We found an advertisement for the Northern Indiana Telephone Company managed by Wilbur Smith, at this address in January of 1930. A January 30, 1930 News Journal article reported that Ed C. Hartman manufactured hand made cigars on the second floor of the telephone office. We have no idea why this item was considered newsworthy, but thought we should give proper space for the item.
We learned from a story written by Louise E. Marks that, prior to 1930, there were two phone companies in town. The Eel River Phone Company and the Rex Phone Company both served the residents of North Manchester. At that time, merchants had to have a phone for each company so customers of either company could call. Louise went on to relate that the merchants always had trouble knowing which phone was ringing.
A November 16, 1944 New Journal article reported that this building and 117 East Main Street were completely remodeled and the double front was changed to one stone-faced front. The Northern Indiana Telephone Company then occupied the entire building.
117 East Main St. - Maude Krisher advertised a millinery shop at this address in the 1914 high school annual. Mrs. Merritts Millinery Shop followed Krisher. The Eel River Phone Company, owned by Ben and Isaac Oppenheim and managed by Lewis Signs, was on the second floor of this address. We think that the North Manchester Telephone Company, owned by Orlando Rex, was also at this location at one time.
The Sandwich Shop, owned by Robert Martin, moved here in August of 1931. A January 23, 1933 ad announced that The Sandwich Shop was sold to A. D. Wilcox, probably Albert. Then The Sandwich Shop was sold again to a Priser and George per a November 8, 1934 ad.
A barbershop had been in the basement at this address for a number of years prior to 1930. Early in our study, George Weber moved his barber shop from the west end of town to this location. We spotted Weber's barber pole at the stairs leading to the basement in the 1938 film. We found a reference that speculated that the Hidy Barber Shop was here earlier but we were not able to confirm.
115 East Main St. - Dr. Horace Winton and his brother Dr. John Winton constructed this building around 1887. The building changed hands several times, and then Dr. Frank S. Kitson purchased it in 1906 for his office. The building was renamed The Brooks Building after Raymond Brooks purchased it on December 8, 1940 from Dr. Kitson's widow, Verna Kitson. It was remodeled and occupied by attorney Raymond Brooks, real estate agent O. C. Frantz, and life insurance agent, Paul Beam. In his own plane, Mr. Brooks met an untimely death in a fatal air crash in 1950. He had been Wabash County Attorney, attorney for the town board of North Manchester, attorney for Manchester College, attorney for the Anderson Packers and the National Basketball League, the forerunner of the present NBA. After Mr. Brooks' death, Mr. Frantz and Mr. Beam continued at this location for many years, renting from Beatrice L. Brooks, widow of Raymond Brooks.
115 1/2 East Main St. - Charles A. Sala, attorney, occupied an upstairs office at this location starting in the 1920's and until his death on June 12, 1935. Eldon M. Wright advertised the opening of his law practice here on November 6, 1939.
109 East Main St. - Joseph Lavey started a jewelry store here sometime before 1872. His brother John Lavey, Sr. took over in 1872. John Lavey then operated the store with his sons, Frank M. and Melvin Lavey. The sons took over when the father died.
Frank died on February 9, 1933. A front-page story in the December 4, 1933 News Journal stated that Dewey Freeze and his wife moved here from Bluffton and purchased the Lavey Jewelry store from Mrs. Frank Lavey on Friday , December l, 1933. The Freezes operated the Freeze Jewelry Store and also advertised "The Green Lantern Gift Shop" on January 15, 1937. Freeze had a going out of buisness sale ad on July 18, 1942. Ads for Freeze Jewelry Store continued to run, but we think a new owner simply kept the name. We finally found a January 3, 1950 ad showing Roy McAdams as owner. E. L. Wampler owned the store beyond our time period. We believe that this location has always been a jewelry store since the 1800's.
103 East Main St. - The original town hall was built in 1901. This was the city hall during our entire time frame and housed all the city offices (such as they were back then). A July 28, 1927 article in the News Journal announced that the town hall was to be built at this address but the town actually rebuilt the existing structure and changed the face of the building. The first floor was raised several steps from street level. There was an entrance on the east end of the building with a stairway to the city clerk-treasurer's office, rest rooms and a room at the rear where the town board met. Back then, this room was referred to as the East Room. A January 6, 1930 article in the News Journal states that T. M. Wetzel was elected city clerk-treasurer. In December 1931 Tom Wetzel advertised his insurance business here. Forrest Baere was elected clerk-treasurer in 1932.
We thought this would be a good place to give the reader information, all in one place, about the police force of North Manchester in the 1930's and 1940's. There really wasn't any structural organization, just men doing their job at a time when there wasn't much crime in a small town. Earl Heeter was town marshal; Paul Hathaway took over in 1932. S. R. Ridgley was fire chief from 1929 until April l, 1933, which is when Paul also took over as fire chief according to an article dated March 30, 1933. Paul's salary for the two jobs was $50 a month, which was raised to $70 in 1937. It is interesting to note that Paul never wore a uniform of any kind until about 1950.
During the 1930's, the town police car was Paul's family sedan, which he outfitted with a siren, spotlight and red flasher in 1936. In 1942, the town enlarged the police department - Jesse Huffman continued as night officer and Don Sheak became a foot patrolman. Don took over as town marshal in 1944. Artie Lowman was appointed town marshal by the town board on December 31, 1948 and then it was Bill Lambert during the rest of our time period. After our period of study, Paul took over again from 1952 through 1955.
The only other staff person during our time period was a night foot patrolman. There was a story in the News Journal that officer Presta Vickery was shot to death the night of October 15, 1930 in a break-in at the Brady store. It was speculated that he was shot because he may have recognized the intruders. Charlie Hite replaced Presta although there are those who say it was Huffman. All who lived during this time are sure to remember officer Jesse "Sarge" Huffman, who took over the night watchman post in 1935 and held the position until 1945. A duty of the night watchman was to turn the street lights out by a manual switch at dawn. Paul or a member of his family turned them on every evening at dusk. The police force back then was a far cry from the modern operation of today, but they got the job done in a much different era.
101 East Main St. - This was the fire department. The truck bays were two stories high to accommodate the fire trucks. On the third floor of the fire station was a large room with theater style seating that was used (on rare occasions) for town trials. Some of the firemen during this time were Bill Weesner, Gale Weaver, Harold Ulrey, and John Hornaday. We are sure there were many others that we aren't remembering.
There was also an apartment on the third floor where the Fire Chief, Bert Swing, and his family lived. Later, Kenneth Lautzenhiser was Chief and he and his wife lived in the apartment. This third floor apartment could be reached by a stairway between the city hall and the fire department, or by the stairway on the west end of the fire department down the hall from the courtroom, which was presided over by justice of the peace John Brunjes. Reportedly, there was a dormitory-type room on the third floor for firemen on duty.
People living outside the city limits had to pay a minimum fee of $25 to get the town fire truck to respond to a fire. Paul Hathaway devised a plan to make fire protection more affordable for the rural residents when he was chief. In March 1933, he completed construction of his own township fire truck from the chassis and engine of a wrecked 1932 Dodge car, an old service truck, a 100-gallon tank and a pumper. He painted it bright red. Rural residents could then, for a small fee, subscribe to township fire truck services. This rural truck was parked right alongside the town's fire truck at this address. Paul privately maintained the township fire truck until 1939 when the township took over funding county fire service and paid Paul $511 per year.
An article in the News Journal dated January 31, 1944 reported that George Wilcox bought the "county fire truck" and replaced Paul as the truck's operator. We think this would have more properly been called the "township fire truck," but the article said otherwise.
Note - We can only figure the jump in numbers at the last 3 addresses from 109 to 103 to 101 - was because these last two buildings were quite wide. The numbers will now change to "west" as we cross Market Street. Before we cross the street, however, it should be pointed out that the jail was located on the side of the fire station in a basement area. It ran about half way down the length of the building south on Market Street.
101-103 West Main St. - Paul Hathaway oversaw the demolition of an old building at this location in 1925; then he constructed a new building for an auto repair shop, battery service, welding and tire business. In 1927, he expanded the building and opened an Oakland Division of General Motors dealership. He then sold Pontiacs with Joe Urschel, who owned the building. In 1929, Paul moved next door and Brown Motor Co. had the Oakland-Pontiac dealership at this location. Hayes Motor Co. moved here from East Main Street and advertised Buick at this address on May 21, 1931. Priser Auto Sales was here for a brief period (at the same time Hayes was here with Buick) and advertised at this address on January l, 1934. Just one month later to the day, Priser moved to 205 North Walnut.
After both Hayes and Priser moved out of this building, Lawrence "Cap" Jefferson purchased it for an auto repair shop and advertised on July 2, 1934 as Jefferson Customized Service. Mr. Jefferson advertised Studebaker Automobile sales on December 15, 1935. Then in 1936, Mr. Jefferson operated as Jefferson Motor Sales with a Studebaker franchise, listing Arden McClure as manager. In 1937, Mr. Jefferson sold the building to Charles Minear and his brother William Minear. They opened a new Ford Dealership, Minear Brothers, as reported on January 18, 1937. Charles Minear sold the dealership to Clifford Snyder on March 29, 1948 but continued to own the building. Clifford Snyder operated his Ford dealership at this address the rest of our time period and well beyondf.
North Manchester Realty advertised at 103 West Main Street on February 29, 1932. This was when Mr. Jefferson owned the building. Perhaps it was just a desk operation at the dealership.
105 West Main St. - In 1929, Paul Hathaway moved from 101-103 West Main Street to this location. On January 6, 1930 he advertised his services: car wash, springs oiled, acetylene welding, tire service, Willard batteries, radio and radio auto service, and Philco radios. Paul also sold Frigidaire appliances in the front part of this building.
In a September 29, 1930 News Journal ad, Russell Kreamer briefly joined Paul in the garage business and advertised as Hathaway and Kreamer. Then in an April 9, 1931 ad, they announced their appointment as an Oakland-Pontiac Dealership. Paul at some point installed a diesel generator to produce his own electricity. In 1935, Paul advertised Super Shell. An ad dated September 17, 1936 advertised Joe's Radio Service at this address. We don't have a last name for Joe nd we presume he just occupied a small cubical at this address.
In 1942, Paul converted the body shop into a frozen food locker plant. This included a slaughterhouse at the rear and an area in the front to process food for freezing. The appliance business continued. In 1945, Paul excavated a basement at this address and put in additional freezer lockers. An article in the September 5, 1946 News Journal reported that the locker business was sold to Albert Weimer, Harry Weimer and Paul Weimer, effective September 3, 1946. Weimer's also made their Culligan soft water service available, which they had started at their canning company location. The same article noted that Paul Hathaway had bought the old Thrush blacksmith shop on North Mill Street and was moving it to his farm to be used as a slaughterhouse. His slaughterhouse had been in the rear of this building.
Later, outside the period of this study, John Paul operated a grocery store where the appliance store had been. The fate of this address is discussed later in 101-111 West Main Street commentary.
107 & 109-111 West Main Street - In the early 1930's, two residences occupied the addresses 107 and 109-111. In 1935, Paul Hathaway purchased the two houses and moved them back from the street so he could build a Shell gasoline station. The gasoline station became 107 West Main Street and the original 107 dwelling became 107 1/2 W. Main St. The address to the west retained just the 111 West Main St., where Charles Felter had his harness shop before moving to 114 North Walnut Street sometime in 1935. Then Dr. C. Eugene Cook, MD. opened his practice in North Manchester March l, 1936 at 111 West Main Street but moved to Market Street by June 17, 1937 as advertised.
In 1943, the gasoline station was transformed into a restaurant that Paul operated as "The Filling Station". The name of the restaurant was changed to "Fulton's Drive In Lunch" when Bill Fulton purchased the business in 1944, as advertised in the Manchester College annual. Bill then changed the name to "The Grill". The restaurant then underwent a quick succession of changes: in 1945, Lester Frye and Jerry Parker, Jr. operated it as "Bill's Grill', in 1946 Lester ran it as "Fry's Grill", and in 1947, Wayne Beard first called it "Wayne's Grill", then "Wayne Beard Grill". There was an ad for "Wayne's Grill" on January l, 1948.
Sometime in 1949, Paul Hathaway and his brother Durwood Hathaway again operated the Grill. Through the rest of the decade, they advertised as "Hathaway Brothers Grill". You may remember the patio and umbrella tables on the west end of the grill and a little stand where soft ice cream could be purchased from Shirley Hathaway. The patio and the private dining room at the back were added in the 1950's outside our time frame.